Monday, June 20, 2005

Mutual submission or hierarchy in the trinity?

What do you think?  Do you believe the Son submits to the Father?  Or that they mutually submit to one another?  Or do you think something else? 

I have just discovered there are different views on this and would like to see what my faithful readers think :)


Jo said...

I believe in mutual submission. I believe that the trinity consists of 3 (1) equals....who share equally in power and authority with one another. I think this is supported throughout the whole of scripture. I believe that they mutually express love to one another within the trinity and that humanity was created out of the abundant overflow of that all-giving love. I believe the Son submitted to the will of the Father not out of a hierarchial obligation, but out of his love for the father, the Spirit, and even for us (Crucifixion). I also believe that the Son was present at the creation of the world (John 1--"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made that have been made....etc. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness but the darkness cannot understand it....." (Anyway, that's from it could be a little misquoted). I also think that the Spirit was involved in the creation process. Gen 1:2--"Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness covered the surface of the deep, and the spirit of God hovered over the waters." (again from memory so quote could be off--my apologies). Anyway Julia, what I believe is that our Trinitarian God does not do anything out of a hierarchial obligation: Everything God does is done in equality and unity. Someone once said that it is like this: SPOKEN by the Father, THROUGH the Son, BYthe Spirit. At least, those are my thoughts at the moment, but they are subject to scrutiny....:)

Julia said...

Thank you for your well-thought-out answer, it truly aided in my understanding of this topic :) I have many thoughts but not many to discuss them with...I think I understand everything you said, but I still have a few questions and maybe you can help.

Can you think of examples when the Father submits to the Son? It seems like this would be required if all were to mutually submit to one another. But I may not understand correctly.

Do you think there should be mutual submission between fathers and sons here on Earth? If yes, then I understand. But if no then why do you think the Bible uses the words, "Father" and "Son" if not to use words (and relationships) we are familar with and can identify with? However, I do not know Greek, Hebrew (or even English!) well, and perhaps "Father" and "Son" are not used the same as we use them?

So that is what I am thinking about, help please?

Jo said...

hey Lulia! i'll have to get back to you on this post. my brain is fuzzy right now.... miss you.

Jo said...

good questions Lulia.
are you asking why can't the human relationship dynamics be applied to help us understand the God Father-Son relationship, right? My thoughts are it's just because HE is God and we are not. We cannot always bring tie our understanding of God to something human (including human relationship). That is imposing a 'box' if you will on who God is. The Bible can tell us that sons should submit to their fathers without putting that standard on Jesus and the Father because They are God Himself. The times the it seems like Jesus "submitted" to the Father's will (like in Gethsemene..."not my will but thine be done" I think he was speaking to the God-head as a was his human-ness crying out knowing that he must continue to carry out the Will of His Own God-self. I do not think that Jesus submitted to the "father's will" out of obligation to obey, but rather out of what HE [Jesus] knew to be the Trinity's will [which includes Himself]....does all this mumbling even make sense?
Another thought is that perhaps while Jesus was on earth, he had to submit to the God-mandated laws for humans on earth: which would be sons submitting to their fathers....but even that doesn't make sense, since Jesus broke the sabaath, etc. so, I dunno....but you've got me thinking.

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